Here is the link to the oral argument that was before the Alaska Supreme Court.
While the Obama supporters continue to call this a birther case, the case was never about the president being born in Kenya.
In 2008, I wrote about his adoption.
Unfortunately, litigants like Orly Taitz have muddied up the legal landscape with poorly argued cases that rendered poorly thought out legal decisions that are used as case decisions to bolster more poorly crafted decisions.
It has now become a nightmare to litigate in a court, an argument that can break through the idiocy that has been laid by Taitz and enshrined in court decisions.
In the oral argument you will hear how the DOJ under Eric Holder misrepresented the fact that Barack Obama's own campaign admitted he held a dual citizenship (side bar: Ted Cruz is in the Left's sights) in court documents.
So while Justice Winfree focused his questioning on if I could sue a judge or Governor Parnell and Joe Miller's employment records, the fact of the matter is: the Alaska court can order the release of the college and birth records of the president.
That is a legal fact.
How the Alaska Supreme Court rules on your right to know what the facts are? That question will soon be answered.
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38 comments:
There is no "public right to know" in this case.
There's no law that allows a taxpayer/voter to force a candidate to release any documents. Because if there was, Lamb would have cited it.
FERPA protects college transcripts, HIPAA protects medical records, and Hawaii's law protect its vital records.
And this is why Lamb will lose.
try reading 20 USC 1232 g (b)(2) (b) on judicial powers on releasing college transcripts idiot.
It was included in the brief.
And the Hawaii code that allows a court from a different jurisdiction to order the release.
Sure a court *can* order a college or the health department to release documents under some circumstances, but the court isn't required make such an order just because someone asks.
No court is going to order the release of otherwise private documents just because some random voter/taxpayer really, really, really wants to see them.
And that is why Lamb is going to lose.
You went from no citations to recognizing that a court can order the release through a statute - giving the court jurisdiction.
Bad argument presented by you.
With a good reason a court "Will" order the release of records that in effect are public especially given it is a public official such as a candidate.
Many judges have done it.
So if the Alaska Supreme Court says you have no standing to obtain the records you seek, will you say that you were mistaken on the law, or that the Alaska Supreme Court is mistaken?
> try reading 20 USC 1232 g (b)(2) (b) on judicial powers on releasing college transcripts
... which says nothing about a court having the authority to compel a college in another state (!) to release anything.
Typical birther law logic to claim that a section dealing with educational funding (basically: withholding funding from institutions which "release too much") somehow creates a legal basis for access to records.
Seriously, if you want to see Obama's college records, why do you sue in Alaska instead of going to the state where said college resides?
Building on the comment above...
Why didn't you file in US District Court, which has the authority to enforce both US and State laws?
AK District court seems like a venue with limited authority, ya know?
Birthers is funny, especially when they deny being birthers.
"You went from no citations to recognizing that a court can order the release through a statute"
Except I actually said, "There's no law that allows a taxpayer/voter to force a candidate to release any documents."
And there is no law that allows for a taxpayer or voter to force the release of these documents. There's certainly no law that forces a *candidate* to release anything. And that's who you actually sued in your case: candidates.
No court has ever read FERPA, HIPAA, or Hawaii's laws to allow some random stranger to see documents just because they really, really, really want to see seem.
"With a good reason a court "Will" order the release of records that in effect are public especially given it is a public official such as a candidate."
That you think they are "in effect public" doesn't make it so. That you really, really, really want to see them isn't a good enough reason in this case -- even in the case of candidates. Because the statutes and case law at play don't recognize that as a sufficient reason.
"Many judges have done it."
If that was true, you would have cited those cases to the court. But you didn't.
And that is why Lamb is going to lose.
A birther is one who believes Obama was born in Kenya.
Or one who called himself a Indonesian Prince when he was younger. That would be Obama.
Once again you have shown your idiocy.
You should brush up on case law that deals with original jurisdictions and states having to abide by the jurisdiction of an order from another state.
Once again it was briefed.
Hell I'll even add the DOJ as birthers when they denied Obama held a dual citizenship until 1983.
That takes some cajones when you make a misrepresentation to the court on Obama;s dual citizenship in college.
Hey, Lamb: If you don't want to be called a birther, please unequivocally affirm the following two simple statements:
1. President Obama was born in Hawaii; and
2. Birth in the United States is sufficient to convey natural-born citizenship.
Thanks in advance.
Okay smartass here is where you look like dumbass.
Read page 17 of the brief at http://www.scribd.com/doc/156114285/Final-Draft-Opening-Brief-Lamb-v-Obama-Alaska-Supreme-Court
You will see where I state he was born in Hawaii.
And the letter I sent to the AG of Hawaii stating that in effect Obama was born in Hawaii.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/115258231/Hawaii-State-Attorney-General
As such if he was born in Hawaii he would be a citizen however that doesn't answer if he had committed an act of Fraud if he labeled himself as a foreign student.
And that makes you a dumbass for making statements without looking at the facts.
Thanks for acknowledging that President Obama born in Hawaii.
Please also acknowledge that birth in the United States is sufficient for natural-born citizenship.
I'll tell you what - you acknowledge that the DOJ made a misrepresentation to the court that Obama never held a dual citizenship and then you will understand that Obama did hold a US citizenship and if he claimed that he held a foreign citizenship in college that he committed fraud.
You are certainly a dumbass for not understanding that he had to have a US citizenship in order for fraud to have been committed if he claimed to be a foreign student.
You've twice failed to plainly say that birth in the United States is sufficient for natural-born citizenship.
You're a birther. Congrats!
Sure and you are a dumbass who doesn't recognize a US citizenship by birth. Nor the fact that the DOJ lied in court proceedings about Obama's dual citizenship in college.
Your avoidance is telling.
I am always amazed at the Obots who scream how Taitz and others are lying but the support the biggest fraud and liar Barack Obama who held a US citizenship from his birth in Hawaii and Kenyan citizenship until 1983 from his Paternal father's citizenship.
And from his early life began lying about who he was and who he hung out with - to his lies told as a president.
Unfortunately there are many dumbasses like the Obot that has posted his nonsense here.
But hey it just goes to show you an education can't teach you commonsense or logic.
You don't seem to be aware that dual citizenship is no obstacle to being elected President.
The clearest case is that of James Madison who was offered French citizenship and enthusiastically accepted in writing before he campaigned for and was elected president.
The issue wasn't deemed very important at the times for it was raised only a few times during his campaign, to no effect whatsoever.
As one of the framers of the Constitution, Madison presumably understood the consequences (or rather absence of consequences) of his becoming as dual citizen.
I am a French legal scholar and historian, therefore I feel no partisanship towards or against Mr. Obama.
FYI, George Washington was also (retroactively) made a French citizen as well as well as Alexander Hamilton. There is some doubt as to whether Thomas Jefferson, too, was a French citizen (sources differ).
To return to Madison, as you may know, he was Jefferson's Secretary of State and negotiated the Louisiana Purchase, which was somewhat controversial and even deemed unconstitutional by some. (As strange as it may seem today.)
The fact that it was publicly known that Madison had accepted French citizenship eight years or so before, something that could have been construed as a huge conflict of interest, was not even raised (AFAIK) by the opponents.
The dual citizenship isn't the issue - it is what Obama did during his college days.
If he claimed to be a foreign student he would have committed an act of fraud.
There is the question of if he listed himself as an Indonesian at Occidental.
If so, in effect he would have chosen a foreign status over his US citizenship.
How many of the original framers and presidents where natural born citizens of the United States like Obama?
Washington, Madison, Jefferson were born before the Constitution and the formation of the United States - the French citizenship was an honorary citizenship bestowed on them.
They did not seek to become French citizens.
Since they were born before the articles of the Constitution and the United States,their standing as natural born citizens would be impossible and it was impossible to find a 35 year old (at the time of the ratification) who would have been born in the US.
Waiting 35 years to have the first born become president would have been a sight to see.
According to Hamilton, the natural born status was put in the constitution for reasons as was a citizen of the US at the time of the adoption of the constitution.
There are two qualifiers to be president - one has run its course with the death of the framers who became president. The other qualifier (natural born) remains.
While Obama was a natural born citizen - what happens when one chooses a foreign citizenship over a US citizenship raises all kinds of constitutional questions.
Tom,
You are aware that the "foreign student" meme was a spoof planted to prank the birthers? Check it out. The first time this story ever surfaced was on April Fools day on a parody website.
Does it make any sense? Colleges charge less tuition for LOCAL residents. There are many more scholarships and funds available to American students than foreign students. So it makes no sense, and you cannot find any evidence supporting it.
Poor poor Lambikins. All he has is one part of a DOJ response, which really does not mean anything
Diod barack Onbama ever apply for UK citizenship before the age of 2? No
Did Barack Obama ever apply for a Kenyan citizenship, since he was allowed to apply for Kenyan citizenship and still hold US citizenship under the Kenyan Constitution? No
Did he ever hold a Kenyan passport? No
Was Barack Obama II born with British or Kenyan citisenship? No. A baby cant apply for citizenship under the British Nationality act.
The BNA required you to apply for British citizenship, and so did the Kenyan constitution do so for people affected by the BNA, it just allowed you to keep a foreign citizenship till you were 23.
The fact that you are utterly clueless about this Lambikins does not mean its not a fact.
"The dual citizenship isn't the issue - it is what Obama did during his college days.
If he claimed to be a foreign student he would have committed an act of fraud.
There is the question of if he listed himself as an Indonesian at Occidental."
First you insist he was a Kenyan Dual citizen, next you claim he was claiming Indonesian citisenship as well? Why not throw Irish into the mix.
And the fact is that when Obama became editor of the Harvard Law revue he said he was born in Hawaii. Since you desperately want to insinuate he was receiving foreign grants to get through college I think the College he was in might have twigged he was not a foreigner when he said he wasn't in his editorials and background information for the editor piece.
"While Obama was a natural born citizen - what happens when one chooses a foreign citizenship over a US citizenship raises all kinds of constitutional questions."
No it doesn't, its been settled. Perkins V Elg I believe is the case, look it up. You are a natural Born citizen regardless of what you or your parents do.
Perkins V Elg ALSO flatly said that your parents CANNOT renounce your citizenship for you, nor can you do it as a minor. So if Obama wanted to be an Indonesian citizen he would have had to do it himself when he was 18, 8 years after he left the place.
So your President is eligible Rejoice! If you don't believe he is then you are a birther.
As for Fraud in his college days, there's a former president who did cocaine and drank away his college days (and never actually admitted it) and was later accused of insider trading. Heres a hint, his sirname starts with B and he precipitated the largest financial collapse of the US economy in 70 years. You didn't give 2 shakes of a Lambs tail about all that.
By contrast, all you ever found out about your president is that he got a few parking tickets, and smoked a few rounds of dope before wising up and getting stuck into his studies.
So there you go. All your constitutional questions have been answered. If you are not a birther you should feel relaxed and happy.
Oh dear why ane you frothing at the mouth?
With love and hugs
Suranis
Thomas if you are talking about the photo ID - yes that was a fake only used to deflect from the issue.
In high school he would have carried his citizenship from Indonesia. And he received a private scholarship.
According to a school record that has been validated he was born in Hawaii and and Indonesian citizen.
He would carry that to enroll in high school. And as what stated he was going to move back to Indonesia after school to live with his family.
To enroll in Occidental he would have had his high school transcripts - the local tuition is irrelevant to get aid for international students.
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2013/09/19/colleges-that-give-international-students-the-most-financial-aid
See ISFAA at Occidental http://www.oxy.edu/admission-aid/financial-aid/international-students
International students get financial aid.
In fact Obama set up funding for such aid for students who want to come from Indonesia to further their education.
https://www.ed.gov/news/speeches/secretary-duncans-remarks-us-indonesia-higher-education-summit
Now an affidavit was submitted that stated under oath that Obama was presented as a foreign student.
The rest of the idiocy is nothing more than attempts to deflect.
Suranis evidently you have a problem with the facts and how an Indonesian citizenship would play into the dual citizenship and how it would play into choosing a foreign citizenship in school as an adult.
Except there's no competent evidence that President Obama ever gained Indonesian citizenship.
Surely you don't think 7-year-old President Obama himself filled out that Indonesian school record found in 2007.
Surely you don't think the school record is a forgery or Barack's mother would lie about his adoption which would allow him to have his parents change his citizenship.
A parent can not change the citizenship of a child. And that is why you continue to lose and will always be a loser.
"Surely you don't think the school record is a forgery or Barack's mother would lie about his adoption which would allow him to have his parents change his citizenship. "
Surely you dont think that Indonesian culture, in which a child of your wife got to carry your name but it never became your child, does not matter in this case.
And of course the school record matters. Its proof that Barack Obama was not raised a Muslim as its to a Catholic School.
Its also the one an only piece of paper where the name Barry Soetoro appears, AND its not an official state document. On his passport application to return to the states, which is a legal document where his legal name MUST appear, he was written sown as Barack Obama, meaning it was his legal name.
AND you are still trying to have him both a citizen of Indonesia, AND a dual citizen of Kenya. AND like I said, HArvard listed him as an American citizen. And they would know if he had foriegn grants.
"According to a school record that has been validated he was born in Hawaii and and Indonesian citizen."
So you are saying that he was born an Indonesian citizen now? AND a British one? Before hos mother had even MET Lolo Soetoro. But hey you waht to believe that Obama's mom was a whore, right?
"Now an affidavit was submitted that stated under oath that Obama was presented as a foreign student. "
By who, you? LOL. How the hell do you know what citizenship he had. What makes your word better than the people who gave 10 year old Barack Obama a US passport, with hois mother right there? All a "sworn affidavit" is that you wrote "I think I am an orange" and you paid someone to botaries and stamp it. Any court would look at it and say "so what if you think that your president is ineligible becasue you think a school record that you are misinterpreting trumps an official us passport record that you are ignoring. You're wrong. Case dismissed"
After 217 lost cases you birthers should have learned the magical power of an affidavit is all in your own mind.
But then even you know you are going to lose your case.
Love,
Suranis
Now, heres an interesting thing about you. You have proven that barack Obama could not have been adopted at the time of that "Official School record"
OH NO YOU DIDN'T! Actually you did. You listed the official Indonesian adoption law
http://thomasalamb.blogspot.ie/2008/08/barry-soetoro-aka-barack-obama.html
"The existing citizenship Law No. 62/1958 states that foreigners can apply
for Indonesian citizenship if they have been living in the country for a
consecutive period of at least five years, or 10 years not consecutively."
Barack Obama had not been living in Indonesian for even a year at that stage. So he could not nor could his parents have applied for Indonesian citizenship at that stage. The time he could have he was already on his way back home.
Now you will rush out and say that the article also ways
"A foreign child aged below 21 and unmarried, who is adopted by an
Indonesian, will be eligible for Indonesian citizenship if the process does not
cause dual citizenship. "
But you see, (a) Barack Obama would still have had dual citizenship of the US and according to you KENYA, and we know this because he was given a US passport going home, so according to this law he COULD NOT received Indonesian citizenship via adoption
And (b) that was in a PROPOSED REVISION of the Indonesian citizenship law. It wasn't actually law yet.
Thank you for proving that Barack Obama could not possibly have become an Indonesian citizen. You have been most helpful
All the hugs in the world
Suranis
It's a known fact that President Obama received U.S. student loans. Those are not given to foreign students. He also cannot be an Indonesian citizen as he was too young to relinquish his citizenship at the time he was in Indonesia nor does the U.S. allow a parent to relinquish their child's citizenship. The Indonesian embassy has already stated that Barack Obama never held Indonesian citizenship. All it takes is a simple phone call and they will confirm this for you.
As far as the record from Obama's Indonesian school, the principal said during the interview, as clearly heard on the video, that children were usually registered with the last name of the head of the household, including their citizenship and religion. Both Ford & Clinton used their stepfathers' names despite them not being legally valid but I don't recall anyone saying their names weren't accurate or accusing them of fraud. Wonder why that is?
Quote:
>>Now an affidavit was submitted that stated under oath that Obama was presented as a foreign student.
<<
I'm calling BS on this. What affidavit? Presented under oath to a real court of law? Which court? Who swore to it? Somebody who actually would know? Somebody who can actually be found? Or is this just another lie?
You know, it gets better. Since we have established that Indonesia does not allow dual citizenship AT ALL, Not even for babies, not only would Barack have had to renounce his US citizenship, but according to you, he would then have to wander over to the Kenyan embassy and do the same to his KENYAN citizenship. All for the dubious provalige of getting his Indonesian citizenship.
Thats a lot of work for a 6 year old. And then he would have had to bribe the US costoms service with his mental powers to give him a US passport again
Its a hard life being a birther, isn't it.
With compassion
Suranis
And it gets even better. After renouncing his Kenyan citizenship, he would have had to go back to the Kenyan embassy to get it back so that he could lose it again at 23, and have that lovely comment on the "fight the smears" website that you are fond of quoting. He did it all for you!
And ALSO he would have had to wander over to the US embassy at some point to get his US citizenship back so he could run for Senator and the Presidency at some point in the future, not to mention travel under a US passport.
All in all, it seems much simpler if he never had Indonesian citizenship in the first place, doesn't it?
Much love
Suranis
Of course Lamb is lying about this affidavit stating that "Obama was presented as a foreign student."
Because if the affidavit did exist, it would be no problem for Lamb to provide it so everyone could see who was the declarant and what this person said.
Just a little notice as I know you are KEENLY interested in the number of people signing up for Obamacare. Did you know Its way up and accelerating?
I knew you would be pleased to know
http://www.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/content/20140211-ri-medicaid-enrollments-far-exceed-projections-private-obamacare-numbers-also-up-significantly.ece
"RI Medicaid enrollments far exceed projections; private Obamacare numbers also up significantly
PROVIDENCE, R.I. — Medicaid enrollments in Rhode Island are soaring, with 35,821 people newly signed up as of Feb. 8 — far ahead of projections.
Additionally, enrollment in private insurance through HealthSource RI continues to accelerate; 16,512 signed up as of Feb. 8, up from the previous month’s cumulative total of 11,770. Rhode Island has now far exceeded the Obama administration’s target of 12,000 by March 31.
Those are some of the numbers released Tuesday by HealthSource RI, the marketplace where individuals and small businesses have been shopping for health insurance under the Affordable Care Act.
State officials had originally projected enrolling 51,000 additional people in Medicaid over 18 months. But after only four months, enrollment is already more than two-thirds that number."
Here's to a happier healthier America!
Suranis
You lose.
Too bad, so sad.
Shoulda kept your eyes on the ground.
http://www.courtrecords.alaska.gov/webdocs/opinions/ops/sm-1485.pdf
Suranis is proud of the fact the Medicaid applicants are up?
You do realize that is based on the fact you are too poor to afford anything else right? All that does if show how Obama's is screwing up the economy so much that many more now qualify for being on Medicaid. But, boast away.
And, Columbia in the late 70's and early 80's craved non-New Yorkers, non-American students. Being a New York student in that era I can tell you firsthand that a guy like Obama who can't put together three coherent sentences without a teleprompter would be shown the door in a NY minute with a thank you very much for applying, we'll get back to you speech. Hordes of sharp applicants from all over wanted into Columbia.
I'd like his Illinois Bar Application addressed. It clearly asks if you were ever KNOWN by another name. Obama answered no.
Clearly he was known by his adoptive father's name whether he used an American passport to return here or not. This is no trivial matter as it is put in place to 'presumably' keep those not of moral or legal high character out of the law.
Nevermind, carry-on...Obama was right in his element in the Illinois Bar.
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